Debate: Baptism Does Not Save Men (Baptist vs. Lutheran)

Apologetics Live 0047

Andrew Rappaport hosts a debate Debate: Baptism Does Not Save Men (Baptist vs. Lutheran). This is a formal debate between Ken Cook and Rob Barnhart.

The computerized transcript is below, it was not edited.

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Debate: Baptism Does Not Save Men (Baptist vs. Lutheran)

Andrew Rappaport: [00:00:00] Alright. We are live apologetics live. Glad you're with us. We're going to have a little bit of a different show here tonight. This will. A live debate. We are going to be having and this is between well we're going to have the topic I should start with that.

[00:00:16] The topic tonight will be baptism does not save men. The person on the pro side of this debate will be Ken Cook. He is a Baptist and on the negative side will be Rob. He is a Lutheran so there's differing views that we have their this is part striving for eternity. You can hear this on podcast on the Christian podcast Community go there to ChristianPodcastCommunity.org to check out all of our podcasts that we have.

[00:00:47] So real quick. I'm going to bring both Ken and Robbin so that they could quickly introduce themselves. And then we're going to start the way we're going to do this as. Guys already know that because they gave me the times we're going to do fifteen minute openings for each of them. We're going to do a 10 minute rebuttal for each.

[00:01:07] Obviously the opening we're going to start with Ken and then we'll do the rebuttal will start with Ken then we do the cross-examination ten minutes each. We're going to do a five minute rebuttal for each and then a 10-minute cross-examination and then 10 minute closing arguments. And so that's going to be the format for this too.

[00:01:28] If Rob is doing too well in this debate, I'll just cut his time in half being a Baptist. I have wait. That's not the way it's supposed to work. Rub. I'm sorry, no will be fair.

[00:01:41] We got to try to get everyone laughing before the debate starts. Right? So Ken why don't you introduce yourself first and then robbed after that.

[00:01:52] Ken Cook: [00:01:52] Perfect. My name is Ken Cook. I'm here in Portland, Oregon. I am a Reformed Baptist. And I'm very excited about tonight's debate. I want to thank especially my wife who's at home with our five children that enabled me to be here to nice quiet place tonight.

[00:02:11] Andrew Rappaport: [00:02:11] You really going to wear that hat, huh?

[00:02:13] Ken Cook: [00:02:13] Oh, yeah.

[00:02:16] Andrew Rappaport: [00:02:16] Rob go ahead introduce yourself.

[00:02:19] Rob Barnhart: [00:02:19] Hi, I'm Rob Barnhart. I'm a confessional Lutheran. There is a distinction there there Andrew not all Lutheran's and sadly our professional. I've long time listener of striving for eternity Ministries and conquer the world. That's how I know about interrupt Port.

[00:02:38] That's it. Just recently. Met Kendall Cook. I do want to kindly just ask those people that if you are interested in this debate and you have got some kind of enjoyment out of it. If you wouldn't mind at least donating $5 to CARM.org, I would really appreciate that Matt slick. I view him as one of my father's of the faith.

[00:03:01] He's taught me a lot taught me how to think logically how they try to examine scriptures and I hope to share. I read from scripture with all of you.

[00:03:13] Andrew Rappaport: [00:03:13] I jokingly say only half jokingly that Matt has trained more pastors than any Seminary because like every know when they're in seminary found Carm and that's where like, oh, yeah. I was going to carbs. It's like I'm convinced Matt his actually train more pastors than. This is very

[00:03:30] Rob Barnhart: [00:03:30] Matt really came into my life at a crucial time. I was really really young in the faith. I was pretty much an empty Evangelical Church that they'd teach any truth just kind of Basics and Mac him along and just opened my eyes and made me want to dig deeper him and Jeff turbine basically started me down that path,

[00:03:51] Andrew Rappaport: [00:03:51] you know, Matt went to a Lutheran Seminary. You should follow mat and come out of that. You know, I mean, he he yeah he at least. He's Presbyterian going to a Calvary Chapel. So he still confused. He's on his way to baptist. I'm convinced that. All right. So we're going to get started anyone who watches regularly knows we do we like to have fun and folks so I should I should before we get started just give a schedule for next couple weeks.

[00:04:20] This week is a live debate. So we're not going to have people joining if you want to ask questions if there's time at the end. Just make sure that for those who are watching live just put a capital Q and A colon. So I spots that and know that's a question that you actually want asked if there's time for questions next week. Eli is going to come on we recently did a debate on the. Gospel truth Channel and we're going to review that debate the following week. I will be in California for truth matters conference. So we will not have a show but when we return I will going to do a basically plays debate I had on true gospel truth.

[00:04:59] And we're going to do a review of that. And so for the reviews we're going to have people allow people to come on in ask any questions, but we're going to probably geared toward the those debates. We do have some other guests apologists that will be coming in in the next few weeks working on that.

[00:05:14] And so I'm not going to reveal the names yet. So with that

[00:05:19] Rob Barnhart: [00:05:19] Andrew, yeah real quick. How's Matt doing?

[00:05:25] Andrew Rappaport: [00:05:25] Matt is moving. So he. He's trying to if you watch the him, you know, when he does his live show, you're seeing hit the room. He's in his lesson this stuff every day. That's how that's how I could tell how his move is going.

[00:05:42] He should be moving. I know the house was put up for sale. And I think that I forget if it's I think it's like next week or two. Can you you murderer you know that

[00:05:52] Ken Cook: [00:05:52] the house is already put up for sale. So soon as it sells their they're bouncing.

[00:05:58] Andrew Rappaport: [00:05:58] So they wait until it sells before they bounce

[00:06:00] Ken Cook: [00:06:00] up in the air.

[00:06:02] Andrew Rappaport: [00:06:02] Yeah, it keeps changing. So but you know be praying for them. It's this is for anyone who knows his wife's situation. It is not going to be easy to do this drive from Idaho down to you know down to Arizona. So just be praying for them through all this it's going to be a lot on Matt. So yeah. Appreciate that.

[00:06:30] All right, so can I'm going to put Robin the background there. Can it is for you to start go?

[00:06:41] Ken Cook: [00:06:41] All right. Well, thank you all for coming. Welcome to this very important debate tonight. The thesis for tonight's debate is baptism does not save men and as a Baptist are we taking the affirmative to that perspective?

[00:06:54] Well, there are several areas that are often view within a baptism debate. We Are Tonight not debating the baptism of infants or sprinkling versus immersion and to the best of my ability. I will remain on the subject of the effects of baptism. I would like to start tonight out with a very popular Luther quote unless I have to.

[00:07:15] Rinsed by scripture and plain reason my Camp conscience is captive to the word of God tonight. I will cite both scripture and reason and I hope that we will not hear my opponent to cry logic because we know logic flows from Christ as all good things do my brother tonight holds the Lutheran view of baptismal regeneration that is unique from the Christian church or Church of Christ View and should be defined properly by what we see within the books.

[00:07:45] In court again to the best of my ability. I will cite either known Lutheran Scholars or the book of Concord itself. Luther's larger catechism says this Faith clings to water and it believes to be baptism in which there is sheer salvation in life. Not through the water as we have sufficiently stated but through its incorporation with God's word and the ordinance and the joining of God's name to it.

[00:08:10] The debate tonight is also not about justification by faith alone. Both myself and my brother confessed as biblical truth. We rather are discussing the act of water baptism and what it accomplishes.  The Baptist view is that baptism is the immersion in water of a believer in Jesus Christ performed.

[00:08:30] Once as the initiation of such a Believer into a community of Believers namely the church this baptism signifies, the Believers confidence that Christ's work will complete was complete for his forgiveness. Justification and indicates his desire for Unity within the church Christ Community of the New Covenant purchased at the price of his blood no saving efficacy a adheres to either the form or the matter itself.

[00:08:59] The person baptized has no scriptural warrant to believe that in baptism. Christ's saving activity is initiated augmented or completed.

[00:09:09] In examining this question. It's critical to Define our terms as such am going to Define salvation or saves as the following to be saved as everyone well knows is nothing else than to be delivered from sin death and the devil to enter into Christ's Kingdom and to live with Christ forever that is according to Luther and the larger catechism as Reformed Baptist.

[00:09:33] I would point you to Romans 8:28 through 30 the golden chain of redemption. That says and we know that all things work together for those who love God and who are called according to his purpose because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son that his son would be the firstborn among many brothers and those he predestined he also called those he called he also Justified and those he justified.

[00:10:00] He also glorified. Paul clearly connects this issue of justification to glorification just as Martin Luther connects rightly being delivered from sin with living with Christ forever salvation is by definition in justification sanctification and the glorification of men. We have no biblical warrant to separate our justification from our glorification in.

[00:10:29] As Jesus said in John 6 for I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but to do the will of the one who sent me and this is the will of the one who sent me that I should not lose. Not one person of everyone he is given to me but raise them all up on the last day for this is the will of my father for everyone who looks on the son and believes in him to have eternal life and I will raise them up on the last day.

[00:10:53] No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will. Is them up on the last day an important question for my Lutheran friend to answer tonight is does baptism actually save or potentially save Robert Cole professor emeritus of systematic theology at Concordia Seminary St. Louis who's also been a contributor to Major editions of the book of Concord says the following scripture does not tell us how it is possible that some runaway in defiance of God who wants all to be saved God's word.

[00:11:28] Baptismal form lays down the foundation of a relationship that he wants to last forever.  Even Luther says not all who are baptized receive the benefit of Salvation. He says this in a larger catechism for by suffering the water to be poured upon you you have not yet received baptism in such a manner that it benefits you anything.

[00:11:55] But it becomes beneficial to you. If you have baptized your if you yourself have baptized with the Nee with the thought that it is according to God's command and ordinance and besides in God's name in order that you may receive water in the water. The promised salvation now V cannot do it nor the body but the heart must believe it Luther clearly tells us Faith must be present for baptism.

[00:12:24] Be efficacious.  So far as I can tell there's a division between the book of Concord definition of salvation, which is living forever with Christ and the definition of salvation that Brett the baptism brings within Lutheran theology. So tonight Rob if a person can be baptized in baptism is is efficacious and justifying the soul.

[00:12:46] How is it that those people can fail to receive? If there are those who will not be glorified, how can you then say we are or were saved by baptism?  With the definition and scope of baptism established. We ought to then ask. What does baptism do in Acts 10 47 and 48. We here can anyone with hold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have and he commanded them to.

[00:13:19] Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ this text in the surrounding text shows a Clear Connection of baptism being added to the church. In fact There Is No Death disagreement in our Traditions that baptism is the final ordinance by which one is admitted to the church. And thus the Lord's table that is to be a member of the New Covenant Community.

[00:13:40] Now this New Covenant is very different from the old it is in fact, the better Covenant Robert Cole began says this Covenant defines the baptized as. Children and as innocent the book of Hebrews says about the New Covenant. I will put my laws in their minds and I will describe it upon their hearts and I will be their God and they will be my people and there will be no need for each one to say to teach his countrymen or each one to teach his brother saying know the Lord since they will all know me from the least to the greatest.

[00:14:13] For I will be merciful towards their evil deeds and I will remember their sins no more. And so he Christ is the mediator of a New Covenant so that those who are called may receive the internal inheritance as he has promised since he died to set them free from the violations committed under the first Covenant.

[00:14:33] The New Covenant is a perfect Covenant and all who are members thereof via. The circumcision of their hearts will be saved baptism. Then is an ordinance that gives a sign of this internal reality. This is why the church is only to baptize those who confessed Christ as Lord. Romans 8:8 says that those who are in the flesh cannot please God and the Lutheran confessional traditions.

[00:15:02] We see that there is a normalizing process of catechetical instruction for adults. And then once that instruction that sometimes lasts as much as 24 weeks is completed. The convert is baptized. In fact, this process is even recorded by Augustine in his catechism. Which contains the instructions for baptism at the end of the catechetical process?

[00:15:29] So the obvious question here is do those who hate God submit to catechism is a normal practice does not catechism, please God now, of course, we can say that there are selfish reasons for such things for the human heart is a factory of wickedness, but I believe that truthfully we can say that the spiritual nature of instruction in the catechism requires one to be spiritually.

[00:15:53] Paul says in First Corinthians, 2:14 that the unbeliever does not receive the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned the unconverted can no more understand the Trinity than a dog can sing the ABCs. So imagine with me if you will that we preach the law and the gospel to a man and he and Contrition begins attending a Lutheran Church.

[00:16:17] Okay, maybe even a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church. Are we to say that? Is unconverted into his baptism. Are we to say that he is still in his sin. Of course not Paul says in Romans 10.  starting in verse 13 for everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved and how can they call on the one whom they have not believed and how can they believe in the one whom they have not heard and how are they to hear without someone preaching to them and how are they to preach unless they are sent as it is written how timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news, but not all.

[00:16:52] Obeyed the good news for Isaiah says Lord who has believed our report and most importantly here in verse 17. He says this consequently faith comes from what is heard and what is heard through the preached word of Christ preaching is the means of Grace that God uses and salvation. My Lutheran friend will tell you that in baptism.

[00:17:13] We have water joined with the word that brings salvation. The problem is that the scriptures nowhere teach this saying the trinitarian formula is. The same thing as preaching the gospel.  If in fact that is so I would like to challenge you rob to show me something tonight. I challenge you to show me one instance in the entire book of Acts where conversion occurs without preaching show me one baptism that wasn't preceded by teaching.

[00:17:42] You won't find. It men are saved by the preaching of the gospel Paul clearly teaches throughout the Book of Acts that we believe. To be saved confer with acts 13 39 and 40 8×14 27 x 15 1 and 2 16 14 and 15 16 30 and 31. In fact, if we were to ask Paul and Silas serves what's up? What must I do to be saved.

[00:18:10] They would reply believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved Peter was clear and X10 who can deny them the Waters of baptism as they already had the Holy Spirit. We see in Acts 8 12 when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ.

[00:18:30] They began to be baptized. Even the Apostle Paul himself multiple times were counted how it was Christ who appeared in preach to him Jesus in the same body in which he was crucified came to Paul and declared. I am Jesus.  Paul knew the claims of the way and saw the Risen. Perform him prior to Paul's baptism ananias in Acts chapter 9 calls his brother Paul his brother.

[00:19:01] Finally if tonight my brother repeatedly cites the context of a plain text reading of the scriptures. For example, he'll say baptism saves in First Peter 3:21. I ask you to consider the text of James 2:24, which says you see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone because of the great problem that this hermeneutic brings even this is what Martin Luther said about the book of James I maintain that some Jew who wrote it probably heard about the Christian people but never encountered any since he heard that Christians Place great way on faith in Christ.

[00:19:41] He thought waiting on it. Oppose them and urge works alone. This he did.  Both the Lutheran and reformed view of faith alone is opposed to this text quote plain reading. So tonight you will see that the scriptures are clear. God Saves through preaching. It is via preaching that men enter into faith and repentance.

[00:20:06] Thank you very much.

[00:20:14] Andrew Rappaport: [00:20:14] When you reset the timer here for Rob. All right, rob. You have 15 minutes. Go ahead.

[00:20:27]Rob Barnhart: [00:20:27] Thank you for having me here. Thank you to Kendall Cook for your opening Salvo. I'll be get right into it. The question is. Thesis of the day baptism does not save men. My opponent is in the affirmative. He is trying to affirm a negative which is much higher bar.

[00:20:48] But he chose that himself. So keep that in mind. So basically I appreciate what he's this approach is here, but I'm going to let the word of God speak not reason not anything else. I spent my reason to scripture.

[00:21:09] First Peter Chapter 3 Verse 18 for Christ also suffered once for sins the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God being put to Death In the Flesh being made alive in the spirit, which she went for claims his spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waiting two days and oh, okay first in order to execute this text right away Peter calls to mine.

[00:21:37] Time water and he brings up the fact that God made a promise to Noah. If you build this Ark I will save you in the meantime. I will be sending Waters to wash away the sin of the world. This is why he calls her – two days. No, cuz it's about to be factored into his argument while the ark was being prepared.

[00:22:01] Which a few that is eight persons were brought safely through the water some translations actually say saved through the. Once he says this he then goes into say baptism which corresponds to this act of God where he has brought eight Pearson's safely through the water washing away sin baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you dissed rectly contradicts my opponents position.

[00:22:31] This is why he must separate the spirit and the water. This must be why he must assume his position outside of scriptures his tradition of that. It's only an act of obedience. He didn't demonstrate that the even try to demonstrate that inspect a matter of facts, but most of the time either quoting small Snippets of the large catechism of folks other such things.

[00:22:59] I'm here to see. The word I am not as removal dirt. So Peter anticipates people's understanding that the water and of self will say he said no, it's not a bath. It's not anything other of such, but it's an appeal to God for a good conscience through the rest of the Resurrection price. So in Baptist were directly connected with the resurrection of Christ.

[00:23:25] We're giving a good conscious. How can you have a good conscience? If it's your work only you can have a good conscious through the atonement of Christ Romans 6. Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ were baptized into his death? We like those the flood died in baptism.

[00:23:47] We were buried with him by baptism into this death. And why did he do this in order to raise us from the dead so we may choose to walk in the newness of life. This is regeneration. So to Regeneration is directly linked with that's for if we have been United in the deathly kiss. We shall certainly be.

[00:24:10] It was him and a resurrection like his here. We see that we will be raised in the same way. He was raised on the great Resurrection.  We know that our old song was for the body of sin might be brought to nothing so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin for one who has died and we did die in baptism.

[00:24:30] We have been set free from such thing the condemnation, you know the bondage of our will our all. Is so your approximation of scripture set free is clearly a salvific way of speaking about that's it.  Titus so when the goodness and loving kindness of God our savior appeared he saved us he saved us not us save ourselves.

[00:24:58] He saved us not because of Works done by us. But according to his Mercy by how by washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy. Here homie poured out on us richly through Christ Jesus.  so that being justified we might by his grace we might become hairs directly linking us with a Our Father Abraham by faith here in baptism to according to the hope of eternal life.

[00:25:29] Boom. Okay. So clearly this is what scripture says about monsters and it goes on and on and on and on my opponent says that they. Wants to know does baptism actually save or does it possibly save?  and he appealed to Romans 8 and his understanding of Romans 8 and what it says which goes far beyond what the text says that text simply says that we.

[00:26:01] we are Justified.

[00:26:07] scripture also clearly. As that we can fall from grace. How faith is the key you do not get into heaven simply because Christ died for you. This is why all Calvinists know that prior to their conversion to Faith. They are not Christians, even though they would say rightly because they are the life to Christ died for them.

[00:26:36] So what changes it's the faith the faith enables them to receive the benefits likewise Faith to Lutheran's is the same thing faith is what gets you in heaven? That's that in baptism is one means that gives you Faith. That's why you too. Ananias speaking. The Paul says Rise be baptized and wash away your sins.

[00:27:05] That's his mm actually did something and it was. Something that was done. It was not just an empty thing that was indicating something that had already happened. It's actually doing something currently and he does this through calling a Christ's name and the baptism clearly. This is speaking of Christ Authority and baptism which Christ is the one that instituted instituted bouncing them in Matthew 22, go there. For baptizing all of your disciples teaching them as I taught you.

[00:27:49] Rice command something it cannot be an empty thing. It must be something beyond that. It's Richard clearly teaches that baptism is not just an active obedience. It is something so much more. It's something that God does to you that's something you do for God.

[00:28:12] You have been filled in him who is the head of all Rule and Authority Palacios to chapter 2 chapter 2 verses 10 to 14 with the circumcision made without hands there. It is again without hands by putting off the body of Flesh by the circumcision of Christ. There. It is directly linking back Christ with the Baptist.

[00:28:34] That is Christ does to work Pastor having been buried with him in? Again, this directly links us back to Roman's 6 when he says in rice in which you were also raised with him how through faith right there baptism faith and the powerful working of God who raised him from the dead and you were debt.

[00:29:02] This is again scripture clear. So my opponent.

[00:29:12] He says we're only saved by the preaching of the Gospel. I say yes, and amen. However, the preaching of the Gospel is also founded baptism. It is God's word by and water. We are not Roman Catholics. We do not believe that baptism is the only means of Salvation and is absolutely required of the Christian in order to be saved.

[00:29:36] We do not believe this. Leave that baptism is one means in which Christ uses to give those faith in his one and only son Christ Jesus for the Forgiveness of their sins.

[00:29:53] We should five husbands. Love your wives as Christ loved the church. It would be all believers. Gave himself up for her. So he might sanctify her having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word. They seawater were.

[00:30:19] The First Corinthians chapter chapter 6 verse 11 and such were some of you but you were washed you were Sanctified you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. How by the spirit of our God baptism with the spirit. I do not say that the baptism of that the Holy Spirit cannot come to someone outside of the water and work.

[00:30:46] Which is what we know is that system but it is certainly if we're everybody were to properly understand loser position of baptism. The what I would say is what scripture clear teaches about baptism then that would be the normative means and which all the come to Salvation. So I quit asking a question does it actually say for it?

[00:31:07] Does it possible say assume certain elements of the two? I do not agree with our reform Brothers on the tool. It actually does save because scripture clearly says it does what you do with the faith. You're given what you do with your salvation that you're given. Is entirely up to you rice will continue working on your faith in the time that you're alive.

[00:31:39] Christ will not fail to save you. However, if you do fall away, it is directly insult your choice. It's because you have forgotten God's promises. You do not desire God's promises. They are not for you. You do not want them you think you know better we see time and time again that God does turn give those who desire that which harms them what they want after a long time.

[00:32:11] We see this in Fair. He gave the Pharaoh many many many many times turn back and to flee to God Pharaoh did not eventually God gave him what he wanted.  This is not a failure of God.  This is squarely on that person who thinks that they know better than God. They don't need Faith. They don't need Christ.

[00:32:37] They don't need the fastest. My brother here doesn't understand baptism Paul clearly in Romans 6 says but now.  This is a minute.  and he's going to go to versus where he assumes that simply because someone has what he perceives is Faith there receives the baptism that this is the normative needs but no.

[00:33:08] In the scripture says a say that the person has Faith. It's something that he is logically could deucing to hold to a Systematic Theology. It's going beyond what the text says. In fact scripture clearly says the baptism saves you which is directly in contact in conflict with his position. He is clearly contradicted scripture and I salary Buchan for doing so and I would tell him to Horn God.

[00:33:38] Promises whether it be by word or word with water doesn't matter is a dangerous thing and I would call all Baptists to deeply think about God's word and what it has to say about baptism to read the text and context the ask yourself who's doing what? Because it's Community clearly communicated in baptism the Lord does the work his all faith for salvation in the one way of Christ Jesus.

[00:34:15] Lisa's but now the chapter 3 verse 25 through 27, but now faith has come we are no longer a variance in Christ Jesus. We are all sons of God how through faith for as many as of you were baptized into Christ have put on Christ faith and baptism linked again.  With 50 seconds left. Thank you for your time.

[00:34:43] That will be all.

[00:34:45] Andrew Rappaport: [00:34:45] Alright, let me reset this to the 10-minute will have.  okay, I'm bringing Ken in for the cross. You will have 10 minutes. Go ahead.

[00:35:00] Ken Cook: [00:35:00] Thank you. Rob for your opening statement. It was it was very nice to hear the standard Lutheran argument what I would like to start though with my robo.

[00:35:11] Is this Rob said that the gospel is found in baptism. I would like you to show us Rob where the gospel is found in baptism show us a text that says the gospel is founded baptism. Explain to us how it is that in baptism. You have the preached word of the gospel because the gospel is a very specific and definite thing to find in First Corinthians 15 and that is distinct from the trinitarian formula that we see in Matthew 28 saying I baptize you in the name of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is not the same as what we see in First Corinthians 15.

[00:35:57] We see the standard. Argument of First Peter 3:21. I think I would like to mainly address this in the cross-examination, but I would simply ask Rob. What is the antitype that baptism is referring to is it Clark? Is it the water what exactly is the anti-type?  I think one of the things that has been really made clear here is that there is no clear Lutheran answer to what Paul says.

[00:36:29] In Romans chapter 10 in Romans chapter 10, we clearly see that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the preached word.  That's what I that's what the text says that's clear as day. And so we can look at all of these other texts which are pastoral documents. And so as we look at these pastoral documents, whether that's Romans chapter 6 Titus Chapter 3 Ephesians chapter 5 or Galatians 1 thing that we ought to consider is these are being written.

[00:36:58] For mix Church to people who are having issues with their faith. And so and encouragement is to say look if you've been baptized you've put on Christ now the idea that that means that every single person who's been baptized has actually put on Christ is not something I think is reasonable to believe either by Luther's definition of baptism or by mine the reformed position on baptism Luther says you have to have faith in order for it to actually be baptism.

[00:37:29] That's that's one of the serious issues here. I would again kind of point out this very important quote and definition from Martin Luther in the large catechism that says for by suffering the water to be poured upon you you have not yet received baptism in such a manner that it will benefit you anything, but the heart must believe it.

[00:37:55] So what we're hearing from the larger catechism from Lutheran documents is you have to have a believing heart for baptism to save well, if you have a believing heart you've already been regenerated.  You don't see any instance and I would ask you rob to clearly show us how someone can believe the promises of God and yet not be regenerated over and over and over throughout the scriptures.

[00:38:23] We see that. Generate men cannot and are unable to receive the things of God. Now what I thought was most interesting was this is Rob started the Night by saying baptism saves baptism saves baptism does all these things if Christ commands this will happen and then he says and I quote you can fall away.

[00:38:49] You can see that the debate with this statement what he's saying is ultimately baptism doesn't save but you save yourself by choosing to not fall away if you choose to continue in faith, you choose to save yourself.  that is the central tenant of Lutheranism and as such I believe that the debate on his side is.

[00:39:11] What he is saying is no baptism doesn't save your choices to not follow away your choice to keep the faith is what saves you.  while I think that there may be some profit in looking at specific text. I would like to spend a little bit of time on on the citation for Max 20. Now we see a parallel to this in Acts 9 in Acts chapter 9 what we see is something very very interesting.

[00:39:44] If you go with me to verse let's say 15. We see this but the Lord said to ananias go for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and Kings and the children of Israel for I will show him. He must how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.  So ananias departed and entered the house and laying his hands upon him.

[00:40:12] He said brother Saul. Now tell me as a Christian. Who do we refer to his brother unbelievers. Do we call unbelievers brother?  By no means we only have one family and that is the adoptive family of God. Our brothers are those who are the regenerate our brothers are those who have faith in Christ?

[00:40:40] And so what we see here is ananias first. In his hands on Paul Paul were gained his sight and then we see an in verse 18 this and immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he were gained his sight then he arose and was baptized. So while my brother tonight clearly says that baptism is the normative means of Salvation.

[00:41:09] That is his words not mine.  What we see in the book of Acts. Is preaching is the normal means of Salvation Rob? I challenge you once again, show me one instance in the book of Acts one instance in the New Testament where preaching or teaching did not proceed baptism.  In every single instance what we see is preaching eyesight.

[00:41:36] Again Romans chapter 10 faith comes by hearing and hearing through the preached word this. Clear as day. Now. What does baptism do baptism is not simply an ordinance. Although it is in ordinance. It is a covenant sign and those who have received. It can receive the Covenant promises. So we do see statements within the New Testament saying baptism confers this to.

[00:42:07] In light of your baptism you have this present reality because they have already been justified by faith alone. They have already been converted through the circumcision of their heart and it is not through their baptism because we see that baptism always follows preaching now. What's interesting is we did not get to go into.

[00:42:36] 238 Rob I hope you do bring up this text and I will kind of set that aside for a couple of minutes other than to say we even see here the very first instance of someone saying.  in the New Covenant era.  be baptized for the remission of your sins that this follows assortment that this follows an altar call and this follows men's hearts.

[00:43:06] In pricked by God and so I would ask you tonight as you consider. Our thesis baptism does not save men. What we have is a very clear set of statements preaching is the means of salvation.  We do not see anywhere in the text of scripture where baptism proceeds preaching.  Thank you.

[00:43:33] Andrew Rappaport: [00:43:33] Alright. Let me reset the clock. I will bring Robbin.  All right, Rob your time for rebuttal. Go ahead.

[00:43:54] Rob Barnhart: [00:43:54] Okay. Thank you. Misheard me and saying that. The gospel thing. I don't think you have to actually crack the quote me, but I'm not going to pick on that too much. She said that there was no clear answer that Lutheran still have no any clear answer on Romans 10. This is not true God's word is heard through preaching.

[00:44:21] This is correct. You're assuming that baptism is not preaching of the word. Clearly that's what we mean by the word that the pastor is preaching the word prior to the baptism after the baptism during the baptism. This is rightly. So if you understood what baptism is within the Lutheran Church, it's surrounded by the word.

[00:44:51] So by hearing the word the word of Christ. Preaching baptism is expressly preaching. We do not disagree on this.  Preaching is a means. The word is a means. It is not the only it is word and baptism is also a means notice though word carries over with baptism because water and of itself does nothing.

[00:45:25] The water in itself does not confer you are must have faith. How do you receive faith is not you going up to the found that going you going into the water? God through the holy spirit gives you faith. We are modern shifts.  So.  God wishes to give someone faith and baptism. That's precisely what he will do and we will raise those people under the understanding of what scripture teaches they will better and better understand what took place in their baptism.

[00:46:09] and other such doctrines.

[00:46:16] He said that we say that you save yourself that I have somehow conceded the bait. No my friends. He's the one who can see the bay. He is the one directly contradicting clear passage of scripture. Matter of fact, he didn't even want to touch the scriptures. He didn't provide his own exegesis of First Peter.

[00:46:35] He didn't provide any exegesis pretty much any versus instead. He wants to use. Sophie and reason to contradict the clear word scripture.  He says we want to save ourselves, but this is a strawman argument. This is a fallacy of the highest order Lutheran's rightly say that the only way you were saved by Christ and Christ Alone that those who will see glorification Christ brought to that.

[00:47:08] Losers believe this.  you falling away is not used lack of you saving yourself or any other form. It is all possibilities scripture clearly warrants. It's about to stand sure and your faith to stand fast in your faith. If you do not you it is possible for you to ship back here Faith. So we rightly.

[00:47:35] Understand these cautions and God through his loving Mercy will keep us in the promises of God.

[00:47:49] This is not salvation through you.  You have to keep in mind also. He's assuming his interpretation of Romans that go to change your Redemption again without even trying to argue for it. He thinks. That if you were Justified you were Sanctified the glorification Moss logically follow.

[00:48:14] Scripture connects the three but for who for the elect for the ones who stay in the faith salvation and of itself is of life, but it does Scripture clearly says that you can fall away can't give up that witch. He's giving me you can deny it right? It's not like you wake up one day and you've lost it I'd car keys.

[00:48:42] It is something you absolutely must do and go out of your way to do it.  So I don't understand my opponent's position here. With the straw man argument and saying that you know.

[00:49:10] Pretty much is a whole argument. I don't generally understand understand his argument at all.  And he's provided nose clear scriptures the contrary he at the beginning of the video. He tried to argue for baptism.

[00:49:36] See what the gospel Pearson's Christ dying for you seen by over 500 Witnesses. What does this give us? If you have faith forgiveness to since eternal life sonship to God things of this nature clearly the baptism text. I read to you inferred all of these things. Plainly said it connected them with baptism and active Faith Baptist connected those fear with bathrooms.

[00:50:06] And these are all means of Salvation. This is the very promise of God, which is what the gospel. The promise of God is that.  you believe I will save you and then God crashes it gives us that Faith to believe.

[00:50:29] I really honestly kind of flabbergasted. It's my opponents arguments because. I thought maybe at the beginning we were on track here a little bit and then he may be understood Lutheranism better than I anticipated. But then he comes out of nowhere with just a weird assertion of that somehow we save ourselves and just not correct.

[00:50:58] It's not. Assuming things that scripture doesn't say scripture says how we are saved scripture says who was responsible for glorification scripture also clearly sense we can follow.  But again, the thesis of tonight's debate is just baptism save.  To get into what exactly that means is.  in my opinion red hair.

[00:51:28] It's about what Baptist does it's about what its effects are I clearly read to you what the effects of baptism is.  Running around scripture talking about this thing and that thing not a problem for lutherans because we hold there are means of Grace different means of Grace God's word baptism cetera.

[00:51:57] So we have no. Table with the exceptions that the Baptist would look to for what they would understand as the primary way.  For adults, right? Yeah, that's no problem with lose rights. That's why we spend so much time with the adults is the rightly teach them the doctrine of baptism so that they don't think that they're doing it as an active obedience to save themselves.

[00:52:25] So they clearly understand that the baptism. They are props part A is directly correlate it to the faith that they have and that this baptism will give you all of these and more when you do.

[00:52:42] Obviously we do it the other way around for if it's we baptize them and then we teach them from the time that they are little to the time there confirm. So with that I forget what is next, but that would be my

[00:53:04] Andrew Rappaport: [00:53:04] Alright. Well with that, I'll reset our time here. I will add Kenan we're going to have now the cross-examination so you'll both be in here. It's 10 minutes. I'll leave the clock going here. So, can you get your first cross-examination? So you start with your questions go

[00:53:24] Ken Cook: [00:53:24] perfect Rob if somebody if always a possibility for someone who has been baptized and they do actually follow a does their baptism. Save some.

[00:53:36] Rob Barnhart: [00:53:36] yes,

[00:53:37] Ken Cook: [00:53:37] it does.

[00:53:39] Rob Barnhart: [00:53:39] Okay. Yes.

[00:53:39] They were that otherwise, they would not have faith to follow away from

[00:53:43] Ken Cook: [00:53:43] it. So does salvation is glorification and. A part of salvation.

[00:53:58] Rob Barnhart: [00:53:58] it normatively is positively

[00:54:01] Ken Cook: [00:54:01] so so would you disagree with the larger catechisms definition of salvation that it is to live forever with Christ.

[00:54:14] Rob Barnhart: [00:54:14] Actually, I would just feed that is clearly gives the definition. Elevation is freedom from sin, which obviously baptism is freedom from the devil. That's a supposed to give and freedom from third thing

[00:54:30] Ken Cook: [00:54:30] sin death and the devil. I'll read you the quote for the larger catechism again to be saved as everyone well knows is nothing else than to be delivered from sin death and the devil to enter into Christ's Kingdom and to live with Christ forever. Would you dispute that definition given by the larger category?

[00:54:49] Rob Barnhart: [00:54:49] And we live within those Kingdom now, I would be right now to just

[00:54:54] Ken Cook: [00:54:54] write so he and Faith. Okay. So again, you you would agree or disagree that Salve to be saved means that you live with Christ forever.

[00:55:10] Rob Barnhart: [00:55:10] Yes, I would I would agree with that. Yes.

[00:55:13] Ken Cook: [00:55:13] Alright, so somebody who is baptized. We then Falls away. Do they live with Christ forever?

[00:55:20] Rob Barnhart: [00:55:20] If they stay in that state,

[00:55:22] Ken Cook: [00:55:22] yes, if they fall away and they die in the state of being Fallen.

[00:55:26] Rob Barnhart: [00:55:26] At that point are they no longer have the faith did doctors who inferred matter of days?  They would not be saved at that point that the David that does not mean that they were not saved to begin with.

[00:55:46] Ken Cook: [00:55:46] Okay. So so what you're saying is someone can fall away from the faith have a gospel baptism and that baptism does not save

[00:55:55] Rob Barnhart: [00:55:55] No I want to see clearly scripture says baptism saves clearly. If you are to read the context of large catechism father casket somewhat looser saying clearly he says baptism saves if you have an understanding of what Luther is saying, other than that and you do not understand loser. All right. Thank you. Do not understand Lutheranism.

[00:56:15] Ken Cook: [00:56:15] Would you would you say. That baptism confers Grace when the sign is validly affected not as a result of the activity on the part of the recipient, but by the power and the promise of God,

[00:56:29] Rob Barnhart: [00:56:29] what are you quoting? I know you're putting from something.

[00:56:33] Ken Cook: [00:56:33] I'm simply asking you a question.

[00:56:37] Would you agree? Yes or no?

[00:56:39] That gear eat again? Yes, I can.

[00:56:44] Would you agree that baptism confers Grace when the sign is validly affected not as the result of an activity on the part of the recipient, but by the power and promise of God,

[00:56:58] Rob Barnhart: [00:56:58] yes.

[00:56:59] Ken Cook: [00:56:59] Okay. What I'd like everyone to hear quickly is that that is the Catholic answers definition of X Opera Opera Rondo. In other words what my opponent tonight has just confessed is the Roman Catholic view of baptism.

[00:57:14] Rob Barnhart: [00:57:14] Well, what I would say to that I've

[00:57:17] Ken Cook: [00:57:17] got additional questions when we see when you say that in the Lutheran baptismal service preaching comes by the were or that that the word is preached before during and after that during section.

[00:57:35] Are you saying that the preached word of in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is. To the gospel found in 1st Corinthians 15.

[00:57:47] Rob Barnhart: [00:57:47] No, that's not all is said if you would look up that what is typically done in batches and there's so much more given before besides that that is part of it as part of the word that was given and baptism but there is more entailed in that truth.

[00:58:02] Ken Cook: [00:58:02] There's more in the rest of the service, but prior to the immediate Act of providing baptism.

[00:58:08] Rob Barnhart: [00:58:08] Yeah, that would largely line and depending on what. Master is doing the thing. Usually they will include some form of the Box the the gospel given by Paul. Yeah prior to the trinitarian formula the formula and it is self.

[00:58:24] That's why it's not just the word. There's usually other word attached but that is where as well.

[00:58:31] Ken Cook: [00:58:31] Thank you so much. So what you're saying fundamentally is in a Lutheran baptismal service what you would rightly called baptism as first preaching and then a trinitarian formula and then. The application of water and that you are are saying that all of those things together make baptism.

[00:58:49] Rob Barnhart: [00:58:49] No, I would say and matters of audio from the formula isn't necessary always the same so they could be proclaiming the word and be pouring the water on at the same time that you know things of this nature. So it might not always be that.

[00:59:05] Ken Cook: [00:59:05] Is the statement of the Gospel found in 1st Corinthians, 15 always a part of the Lutheran baptismal service?

[00:59:14] Rob Barnhart: [00:59:14] There's always a gospel promised deliverer that Christ has died for the Forgiveness of your sins. Thank you.

[00:59:21] Ken Cook: [00:59:21] So Rob given that you you. Agreed with X Opera Opera and oh, why is it that you haven't hijack the 747 water tanker flown over.

[00:59:30] I don't know Los Angeles or maybe better yet, Washington DC and blared a loudspeaker with a baptismal formula and preaching and sprayed water on all people baptizing them and thus converting.

[00:59:43] Rob Barnhart: [00:59:43] Because that's not what I believe baptism is it would do nothing because they would not be taught. They would not be they would have inevitably fall away.

[00:59:53] If God so chose to act in baptism to give them Faith because they would not be going to church or whatever like that and they would afford that baptism. They it would be profitable. However, if the Holy Spirit fell on them, they had Faith Etc that bastard actually would do. What scripture says Baptist will do what you're

[01:00:16] Ken Cook: [01:00:16] saying fundamentally?

[01:00:17] Rob Barnhart: [01:00:17] What I what I understood that quote from the catechism to be talking about is that faith. It must be given that it does not in and of itself confer faith in a bit self. So I did not really understand the quotation you're reading correctly because that's what losers would say that we do not hold 2x upper octave.

[01:00:40] Ken Cook: [01:00:40] I understand that. I understand that you say that now but when I Define it you said yes, you would agree with it. I defined it twice. I think we were pretty clear. So what you're saying then is people can have a valid baptism and not and not received faith. Is that correct?

[01:01:00] Rob Barnhart: [01:01:00] When I say that,

[01:01:02] Ken Cook: [01:01:02] I'll just about two seconds ago.

[01:01:04] Rob Barnhart: [01:01:04] No, I did not.

[01:01:06] Ken Cook: [01:01:06] Okay. So when Luther says

[01:01:07] Rob Barnhart: [01:01:07] aren't one must have faith for it to be called a baptism if you do not receive faith for whatever reason.  That is not a valid baptism. It didn't do anything. It's just water. It's just a bath doesn't do anything.

[01:01:23] Ken Cook: [01:01:23] Okay, so Luther says for by suffering the water to be poured upon you you have not yet received baptism in a manner that.

[01:01:30] Rob Barnhart: [01:01:30] Benefit he's doing exactly what I'm saying. Yes or no water in himself.

[01:01:34] Ken Cook: [01:01:34] I'm asking the questions here. So you have water poured upon you but it only benefits you.  if the heart believes it.  so Faith must be present. You must have faith in order for baptism to to profit you something

[01:01:50] Rob Barnhart: [01:01:50] it where does faith come from the Holy Spirit Holy Spirit attached baptism with the Holy Spirit falls on you you will be granted face.

[01:01:58] Ken Cook: [01:01:58] So what you're saying,

[01:01:59] Rob Barnhart: [01:01:59] we believe God's promises in baptism.

[01:02:03] Ken Cook: [01:02:03] Okay, so the question so every every person who receives baptism every person who receives it will have faith granted to them.

[01:02:13] Rob Barnhart: [01:02:13] We don't know the scripture doesn't say scripture simply says that we're about system is where the word is where the holy spirit is the Holy Spirit to give faith.

[01:02:25] We won't know unless unless the person exhibits to confession. So what do you believe God's promises

[01:02:33] Ken Cook: [01:02:33] what you're saying is when someone is baptized you do not know if they are saved.

[01:02:40] Rob Barnhart: [01:02:40] No, we would say we would. Say that they are from our perspective. We do not know if from God's perspective because he only he can know the hearts of men and whether or not he gave faith in that moment or not, but we would say okay this person seems to have faith in God's promises seems to be doing things that would exhibit Christianity.

[01:03:08] If later at that point, they contradicted that thing then we would like, okay. Then we misunderstood however, if they never contradicted that thing and they stood in the faith because God gave them the faith to stand in the faith. Then we would say, yes, they were safe.

[01:03:23] Ken Cook: [01:03:23] Perfect. Thank you for conniving position.

[01:03:27] Andrew Rappaport: [01:03:27] Okay, Rob your turn for questions. Go ahead.

[01:03:36] Rob Barnhart: [01:03:36] Okay. Give me two scriptures that would indicate that baptism is only an outward sign and only an act of Revenge.

[01:04:03] Ken Cook: [01:04:03] But I don't think my position is that baptism is only an outward sign or only an act.

[01:04:10] Rob Barnhart: [01:04:10] You did say that in your opening.

[01:04:12] Ken Cook: [01:04:12] I would say that is it is that but it is also a tangible means of Grace for those who have already been converted.

[01:04:23] Rob Barnhart: [01:04:23] Okay. Well, I appreciate you changing your answer. That would be. Old form of reformed Baptists position. So I appreciate that. Okay, so.  so

[01:04:49] you said. Preaching is the normative means of Salvation

[01:04:58] Ken Cook: [01:04:58] now, I did not and it means I said it is the means of Salvation

[01:05:02] Rob Barnhart: [01:05:02] is means okay is the means so much.

[01:05:11] Okay, how do you know that

[01:05:13] Ken Cook: [01:05:13] Romans? 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the preached word of Christ.

[01:05:22] Rob Barnhart: [01:05:22] And if God's word is given in batches, does that have the mean say

[01:05:27] Ken Cook: [01:05:27] water isn't preaching?  That's that's assuming

[01:05:31] Rob Barnhart: [01:05:31] someone that's not understand. That's not my definition of baptism baptism is water plus where you cannot have answers and otherwise, so I ask you again. Baptist since it has the word is it a means of Salvation?

[01:05:48] Ken Cook: [01:05:48] I would say that the word is them is a means of Salvation is the means of Salvation. The application of water is not. Yep, the application of the water is only for the purpose to show the outdoor as an outward sign of an already present reality.

[01:06:06] Rob Barnhart: [01:06:06] So you separate the two scripture links to two together.

[01:06:12] I just would.

[01:06:14] Ken Cook: [01:06:14] That's a very thing that's a debate here. Rob is is you say that I'm not sleuthing

[01:06:19] Rob Barnhart: [01:06:19] demonstrated that.

[01:06:24] So if the word is not the means and baptism, how can you make that distinction? I don't understand. You said the word the word is the means of Salvation where does given in baptism yet? You seem to not want to just simply say that then in that instance baptism with safe.

[01:06:48] Ken Cook: [01:06:48] That's what you're saying. We have a baptismal service and I preach the word and then baptized someone people will necessarily be saved. That's sorcery. But

[01:07:01] Rob Barnhart: [01:07:01] traffic we're safe where faith is present.

[01:07:06] Ken Cook: [01:07:06] And so so in other words, you're baptizing someone not knowing if they have faith.

[01:07:12] Rob Barnhart: [01:07:12] No, we would trust God's promises that in baptism.

[01:07:16] He will give Faith to do otherwise is to not trust God.

[01:07:20] Ken Cook: [01:07:20] Okay, so so in every instance you believe that when someone is baptized they are given

[01:07:25] Rob Barnhart: [01:07:25] faith. We trust God's promises that he will deliver faith. So we're cruising. Otherwise that the person no longer has Faith again. I struggled to try to why I'm nailing you on this because I don't think you're consistent on this you are one hand want to say the word is means but yet you want to try to reject one way that the work can come to you with water.

[01:07:53] I really don't understand how you could do that. The only way you could do that is to separate the word but the water which scripture does not allow you to do again. I understand why you do it, but I dive generally not understanding how you could logically consistently say you believe in scripture here the clear connection between water and word and yet rejected.

[01:08:17] That's that's where I'm trying to figure out

[01:08:20] Ken Cook: [01:08:20] when Paul when Paul went into Corinth. He said I'm thankful that I didn't baptize many of. Now Paul, we know went and preached and then we see in later in Corinthians that he is said to be the spiritual father of many, but they have many teachers but one spiritual father that is Paul.

[01:08:39] And so so we can see that it is the preached word not baptism that made Paul their spiritual ha.

[01:08:48] Rob Barnhart: [01:08:48] Again separating the preach word from baptism.

[01:08:52] Ken Cook: [01:08:52] That's what the text of Corinthians does. Otherwise. Why would why would Paul say well, it's not it's not my place to ask you questions here.

[01:09:02] Rob Barnhart: [01:09:02] Again, you've once again separated the means and I'm that's why I'm asking you these questions because I think it demonstrates that because your tradition you must create sanctions in Scripture that are not there that are not necessary that you're more loyal to of tradition men something else.

[01:09:21] All right, so I appreciate your thing since we have 4 minutes real quick. Can I please have you know, at least attempted it? Jesus the First Peter chapter 3 verse 21.

[01:09:36] Ken Cook: [01:09:36] Yeah, I would I would happily exegete first Peter. So what we see here is the likening of the story of Noah and the Ark to baptism.

[01:09:47] Now what we see here is in the story of Noah, and the Ark is water does not save anyone. In fact, you know has family was said to be saved through water not by water now the text. Ashley says that baptism is an antitype.  To that,

[01:10:05] Rob Barnhart: [01:10:05] what would I break? Yes write,

[01:10:07] Ken Cook: [01:10:07] the definition of an antitype is a sign of something.

[01:10:12] It is not an actual reality of something. It is a sign is a meat is the meaningful definition of antitype. You can feel free to look that up. As such we do not see that baptism actually saves we see that it is the preached word through Christ that saves but rather that once one has baptism they can through this pledge of a good conscience be said to be saved because of Christ's Resurrection.

[01:10:47] Rob Barnhart: [01:10:47] Well, I really appreciate you giving me extra Jesus and. I would strongly pray that those who are hearing with here just the laughs Alexis. She's just that you just game. I mean it's a disaster. But thank you for giving that to me. It definitely demonstrates the Baptist cannot rightly handle this text at all.

[01:11:08] Thank you. That would be awesome again.

[01:11:13] Andrew Rappaport: [01:11:13] Okay, we will go back to rebuttal it will be a five-minute rebuttal. o give me a sec to three set our timer here. We start with Ken for a 5 minute

[01:11:31] Ken Cook: [01:11:31] rebuttal go ahead or very well. I think that this cross-examination was radically enlightening what we what we see is that.

[01:11:40] The Lutheran in this debate confessed openly 2x Opera Opera Rondo. He openly confessed to the Roman Catholic position. He openly confessed that if baptism is simply properly administered then by definition. God will say.  He in essence has turned baptism into an incantation. He's turned this into.

[01:12:10] You sorcery. In fact, then in the section where he was cross-examining me, he and I wrote this down. He said in baptism. God will give faith. God will give faith. As a Baptist we find I find this really interesting because because what ends up happening then is is you've got this person going through up to 28 weeks 24 weeks of Lutheran confirmation or and catechesis, but then.

[01:12:45] Nothing, it's only after that they're baptized. So this if what Rob is saying is correct is true. What are you saying is that in their Church their process is to take people who are unconverted teach them a bunch of Christian Christian stuff that they do not understand and can understand because it's spiritually discerned.

[01:13:09] And then and only then do they baptize them were they then? As Rob said that's where they normatively receive faith.  this this is so foreign to the text of scripture will what we see in the book of Acts in every single instance is this. Somebody preaches and then people are baptized somebody preaches and then people are baptized.

[01:13:35] There is clear repentance and Faith. I'd like to now go to Acts 2:38, which I think is a radically important text for tonight.

[01:13:50] And and here's kind of what we see in Acts 2:38.  is Peter gets up and. Preaches the first sermon.  and then the people respond and they respond out of conviction. They respond as men who who have been dealt with we could say by God. In fact, it says this.  now when they heard this they were distressed.

[01:14:28] Some translations would say there were cut to the heart.  Now this should bring about in imagery to you of circumcision of their hearts.  And they then say now what should we do?  Peter says repent and be baptized for the Forgiveness of your sins.  And you will receive the Holy Spirit.  now what's interesting here is.

[01:14:58] Is he doesn't tell them to have faith why because they already have it.  Unregenerate men do not in light of seeing their sinfulness before a holy God unregenerate men in light of recognizing their murder of the son of God.  Do not say well, what should we do?  They'd rather do nothing.  What? Has failed to address tonight is this issue of plain text reading he wants to Simply read the text and say well this is what it means.

[01:15:37] Rob I would I would ask you clearly if we're going to use a plain text a plain text reading hermeneutic does not.  James 2:24 force you to reject.  justification by faith alone.  does not pay. When he says save yourself from this perverse generation teach that people can save themselves.  No, we recognize I as a Baptist can recognize that there are different meanings and usages within specific texts as a Lutheran.

[01:16:17] It seems like what you're able to do is what Luther said which is let's get rid of a book that we can understand.  Because we're forced into a particular View. Finally, I'd go back robbers could has said time guys time. Oh, sorry about that.

[01:16:37] Andrew Rappaport: [01:16:37] All right, Rob. Let me add you in and it is time for your rebuttal.

[01:16:42] Go ahead.

[01:16:46] Rob Barnhart: [01:16:46] I never address the issue of what Peter is referred to and three and he is referring both to the ark and the water. Both elements of presence just as in my baptism of Christ and the water is present in the Christ brings us safely through the water, which I did say a little bit but that was a deeper explanation.

[01:17:11] So I did actually answer that you said I openly confess except for Toronto know you provided a quote when I asked you what the quote was because of the language didn't stop by right to me. Did that sound like a Lutheran resource, but. I actually trusted that you would not try to pull a trick and to use vague theological language which can be interpreted many different ways as to say that I clearly.

[01:17:43] In fast XR Pronto is just charged it. If I was a person I probably would punch you in the face because it's just such an obvious lie. It's just a it's just a trick of the highest order the devil jumps and deceit and you have Delta deceit here Lutheran's clearly condemned except Pronto. You must have faith God blows where he wishes the Holy Spirit goes wherever he wishes in baptism and.

[01:18:13] Heard I could do whatever he desires faith is necessary for baptism to save you are given can be given faith and baptism. If God Wills you to give give you faith and baptism that's what will happen. We understand that faith is linked to baptism and scripture. Clearly face can come that. If God said you wanted to appeal to Peter's at chapter 2.

[01:18:46] I'm not sure why you think this text does anything to support your thing. You want to understand that they heard the word and were converted and blah blah blah blah blah and then they did a thing right? They did hear the word and they were like hmm, okay. If you're right, what what shall we do? I mean, I don't understand what you're asking us to do and in light of the truth of the word Peter says he tells them okay repent which we should both confess that Francis is given by God be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for what?

[01:19:32] For the Forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. We're in baptism.

[01:19:44] That's the flow of the text. The promise is for you and your children and all who are far off everyone whom the Lord Our God calls himself. So he even includes the children amongst. Here's she you would draw. Contradict no, we don't have I will change to and no Luther did not inevitably throw out change to after coming out of Rome being opposed by Roman Catholics persecuted for his faith.

[01:20:18] He re-examined scripture in light of this persecution. And at one point in time considered James to be not script. He later recanted and changed his mind and rightly understood that throughout church history. James has always been listed in the Canon. Well not I should say always but mostly listed in the Cannons given previous by Church fathers.

[01:20:44] Therefore he under under under the understanding of Romans and James understood that they did not conflict each other, but they actually agree with each other therefore. He did not throw them out to say that he did is to discover. Your brother in Christ. Yeah, which you did say. Wo

[01:21:05] Andrew Rappaport: [01:21:05] okay. Let me reset this.

[01:21:07] Then I will add Ken in we will have a 10-minute rebuttals.

[01:21:19] Rob Barnhart: [01:21:19] Would it would it be possible if I can have like a like a quick few minutes to get up and walk around and I'm here in the city positioning. My legs are falling asleep.

[01:21:32] Andrew Rappaport: [01:21:32] Yeah, I guess as long as long as you can still answer question sure. All right, we're going to we're going to start with Ken for your cross.

[01:21:40] You have 10 minutes go.

[01:21:43] Ken Cook: [01:21:43] Thank you. Rob. You said that you can be given Faith with that person. Are you always given faith and

[01:21:53] Rob Barnhart: [01:21:53] baptism sugar doesn't say.

[01:21:58] Ken Cook: [01:21:58] you don't know.

[01:22:00] Rob Barnhart: [01:22:00] But no, it's not that I don't know. I don't have the required information to know only God knows.

[01:22:05] Ken Cook: [01:22:05] Okay, thank you. So given that you can't say that baptism definitely save somebody you can only say that it might save someone if God chose to give them Faith

[01:22:16] Rob Barnhart: [01:22:16] No, I would say that's just receives if we understand what that system is otter word faith.

[01:22:24] God acts

[01:22:25] Ken Cook: [01:22:25] so far a baptismal service not receive faith. Not know that they didn't get baptism.  What

[01:22:33] Rob Barnhart: [01:22:33] do you mean? I'm sorry. They would they would understand that they believe that they took a baptism but we understand by the definition of baptism given by Lutheran's and from scripture that baptism is a thing water where Faith they don't have fans and they were not baptized.

[01:22:51] They took a tank in the water.

[01:22:54] Ken Cook: [01:22:54] Quit so so Rob you you cited in Acts 2:38 for the remission of your sins is your

[01:23:01] Rob Barnhart: [01:23:01] understanding forgiveness. Forget it. Is

[01:23:04] Ken Cook: [01:23:04] it your understanding that scripture says that that actually means that at that moment their sins were forgiven.

[01:23:15] Rob Barnhart: [01:23:15] At what moment

[01:23:16] Ken Cook: [01:23:16] at the moment that they went into the water and had baptism applied to them?

[01:23:23] Rob Barnhart: [01:23:23] Scripture doesn't say it's just simply says that in baptism who received the Forgiveness of sins. That's all we know. We don't know the timing. We don't know all that stuff. We don't get into that. We just simply confess what scripture says that Peter said repent and receive the Forgiveness of your sins by baptism

[01:23:40] Ken Cook: [01:23:40] or so in mark one for John said repent and be baptized for the Forgiveness of your sins for people who conceived John's baptism.

[01:23:52] Also forgiven of their sins.

[01:23:57] Rob Barnhart: [01:23:57] Well, that's what the baptism did. That's what it was for. Keep in mind that this is a different Covenant. This was the old Covenant.

[01:24:06] Ken Cook: [01:24:06] I understand that did they receive the Forgiveness of their sins when they were baptized?

[01:24:13] Rob Barnhart: [01:24:13] We see John giving baptism. We see that the reason why he was giving the baptism one was forgiveness of sins and want to be there.

[01:24:22] So that when Christ would come he could baptize them. I thought you were in that time. Sure does it say scripture doesn't say it doesn't say if the people he baptized necessarily receive forgiveness of sins, but that was why he was baptizing.

[01:24:36] Ken Cook: [01:24:36] Okay, so perfect. So what you're saying is we can we can see scripture saying repent be baptized and this is going to happen and we don't necessarily know if it definitely will happen.

[01:24:48] We just have to hope that it does. Is that what you're saying?

[01:24:51] Rob Barnhart: [01:24:51] No. Faith, we must we must trust God's promise that in baptism and we receive God's promise. We will be given Faith to to have the faith to believe God's promises. Okay,

[01:25:07] Ken Cook: [01:25:07] so when and this is not a question about infant baptism, so please do not take it as such.

[01:25:13] Rob Barnhart: [01:25:13] Yeah. I apologize for bringing up, but I had to because it was in the context. I don't know.

[01:25:18] Ken Cook: [01:25:18] What would be the difference between. Baptizing an infant who has no awareness of what's going on and flying a plane over a city and baptizing someone who has no awareness of what's going on.  It would there be any functional difference in your mind.

[01:25:36] Rob Barnhart: [01:25:36] Well, I wouldn't agree that children have no understanding. We actually see from science that children. Actually I can recognize their mother's voice can recognize. Certain music being played can actually respond to this we see in Scripture that John respond to the presence of Christ in the womb.

[01:25:53] So we actually don't actually know beyond some evidence that children have some kind of awareness, but we're not quite sure exactly how much but again we don't. I understand that faith is necessarily something that we must do that. It is something given by God. So even if the person was that quote unquote capable believing in of themselves trying to write like Infested by Nature.

[01:26:18] We cannot God can make that a reality. Okay. So in fact, he does that with adults.

[01:26:26] Ken Cook: [01:26:26] Okay. So so then why should we not simply fly planes over major cities and baptize people with a loudspeaker playing the sir?

[01:26:37] Rob Barnhart: [01:26:37] If if we could make sure that those people would try to be spoken to and be led through God's word and be told the gospel and the law over and over and over again in some way shape or form. We should absolutely do that. Matter of fact if it was practically possible, you know for you had all the money in the world and I was a billionaire I could see somebody doing that and just keep on on the loops.

[01:27:04] Fly that plane every Sunday after they dumped, you know, or whatever and reading God's word allowed and trying to catechize people whether they wanted to or not. But again the problem with that is there not we have no way of knowing if they're reporting that the baptism we're not because we're not interacting with them.

[01:27:25] It could be that they simply get mad at being soaked against their will

[01:27:30] Ken Cook: [01:27:30] I felt so then what you're saying is that baptism does. Grace when the sign is validly affected.

[01:27:39] Rob Barnhart: [01:27:39] Yeah, I don't understand that language to be honest. That's why I didn't rightly understand that. I've read the Catholic catechism like three times, but it's hard to remember the language because it gets really really up to sometimes I would just simply say dead if God so will too. Bring about the means to make me a bazillionaire.

[01:28:00] And for whatever reason I thought it would be wise to baptize everybody. God could absolutely actor that act to give people the faith to recognize God's promise in baptism and hear the word.  That being said I don't think it would be advisable because we would probably be breaking numerous laws and doing that especially against at least some of the peoples who against their Wills because they would not have faith.

[01:28:26] It's simply just be wet if you mad so would that be a positive do

[01:28:31] Ken Cook: [01:28:31] you not think a baby is just wet mad

[01:28:33] Rob Barnhart: [01:28:33] know if they have faith. They they recognize that there are wet, but they definitely have faith and they are glad to be in Kate got price King.

[01:28:44] Ken Cook: [01:28:44] So what you're saying is when some when somebody who is.

[01:28:50] never mind, we'll just pass that by will pass that be okay.

[01:28:57] Wow, I guess kind of kind of last question is can you point me to a specific scripture that says baptism provides face?

[01:29:14] Rob Barnhart: [01:29:14] I wouldn't say supplies but it does link baptism and faith. I'm not gonna have time to flip to it. I'm sorry. I have it written down here. Um, okay Colossians chapter 2 is where I would go.

[01:29:39] It's and Bachelors like together.

[01:29:41] Ken Cook: [01:29:41] Now that says if you were raised you were. Is through faith not that you were baptized. It's not that Faith was provided in baptism. I'm looking for something that says where baptism

[01:29:52] Rob Barnhart: [01:29:52] provides area. I would disagree with that because it says baptism this is through faith, which the faith was given a baptism.

[01:30:00] That's how you're raised. So it's linking baptism Faith there.

[01:30:05] Ken Cook: [01:30:05] I think that's you reading your tradition into the text. But I guess we'll move on from there. Can you show me anywhere where the got where somebody is? Scripture is baptized without preaching.

[01:30:19] Rob Barnhart: [01:30:19] Well, since the word is always present whether it be in the word or baptism, that's not a reality. So

[01:30:26] Ken Cook: [01:30:26] so you're saying there's no difference between baptism and preaching they are the same thing.

[01:30:31] Rob Barnhart: [01:30:31] They are they're both means of Grace God's issues to save somebody through just a preaching alone. Then that is God's Sovereign choice to do.

[01:30:39] So God's overly chooses to save someone through the preaching of the word. Connected with baptism that is God's choice to do so.

[01:30:47] Ken Cook: [01:30:47] So I guess that's not the question that I asked.

[01:30:50] Rob Barnhart: [01:30:50] I believe we see instances of both in Scripture that those who are given Faith by the word and then are baptized quickly after and I think that we see examples of people who are baptized and then given faith

[01:31:03] Ken Cook: [01:31:03] and Faith given by all means of Grace.

[01:31:13] Rob Barnhart: [01:31:13] Where faith is present to receive it? Yes,

[01:31:17] Ken Cook: [01:31:17] so could you rightly go convert people by providing the Lord's Supper?

[01:31:23] Rob Barnhart: [01:31:23] If God put sovereignly give that person Faith. Yes, they would receive the Forgiveness of sins and communion, but that's a little bit off topic don't you think I maybe it has to do breaks, but it's a different Sacrament.

[01:31:36] Ken Cook: [01:31:36] I think it's radically germane to what we're talking about here. Thank you, very.

[01:31:41] Andrew Rappaport: [01:31:41] All right. So that's time and Rob you got your 10 minutes for questions go.

[01:31:49] Rob Barnhart: [01:31:49] Okay, can if you had all the money in the world they can do whatever you want. Would you fly a helicopter preaching as we're to everybody who could listen?

[01:32:03] Ken Cook: [01:32:03] No.

[01:32:05] Rob Barnhart: [01:32:05] why

[01:32:07] Ken Cook: [01:32:07] not I would. I wouldn't see that while preaching is a means of Grace that that does not seem to me to Be an Effective means of disciple-making

[01:32:25] but it could Grant faith. If you did that

[01:32:27] may be impotent.

[01:32:30] Rob Barnhart: [01:32:30] You said you said the you said the word is a mean is the means of Salvation. So if God's Ivory chose.

[01:32:39] To use your ministry to give faith and he would shouldn't you then at least consider that

[01:32:45] Ken Cook: [01:32:45] no.

[01:32:47] Rob Barnhart: [01:32:47] Because disturbing

[01:32:49] Ken Cook: [01:32:49] do it if we recorded an album of singing dog singing Christmas carols to but we're not going to

[01:32:57] Rob Barnhart: [01:32:57] do that either. Do you go to open-air preaching

[01:33:00] Ken Cook: [01:33:00] I do.

[01:33:01] Rob Barnhart: [01:33:01] So you're proclaiming the word Amongst the Wheat and the tares.

[01:33:05] Are you not? Yes, is that not the same thing as flying over the heads of people and proclaiming God's word?  It might it's the same thing. There are people who are hearing with faith in their people who are rejecting. So, theoretically if you think it's necessary to do one should at least consider it a good possibility to consider the other because it's basically the same thing.

[01:33:30] Ken Cook: [01:33:30] I don't necessarily describe something you simply asked if I would do it and I would say no.

[01:33:35] Rob Barnhart: [01:33:35] Yeah, so it's a personal choice. It's not necessarily you view one as maybe a better Avenue than the other.

[01:33:46] Ken Cook: [01:33:46] I would say that that preaching the gospel to somebody and calling them to repentance and faith in.

[01:33:54] Is a personal

[01:33:57] Rob Barnhart: [01:33:57] process?  And then we'll wouldn't that directly contradict open-air preaching because it's directly not personal and all your talking amongst a bunch of people here.

[01:34:07] The only

[01:34:07] person have a private conversation.

[01:34:09] Ken Cook: [01:34:09] The only person who would say that as someone who has an open-air preached.

[01:34:13] Rob Barnhart: [01:34:13] Well, I have open-air preaching it's distinctly a public conversation. You're not having private conversations. You're not having you can have one at 1 times but by and large you're speaking to mostly people who are passing by and through it's rare to have somebody stop and talk to you long enough to where you can give them more information.

[01:34:31] But okay, I'll just I just wanted to see if you're consistent. I don't think you're logically consistent on that one least. I'm consistent. I would go and I preach the word. To people who who were either willing to hear that one here, and I'd be willing to preach to wear through baptism.

[01:34:50] Regardless. I think that's logically consistent.

[01:34:59] Do you did you know that Luther later clarified his position on changed to when you cited that he at one point in time. I had feelings that it might possibly not be scripture.

[01:35:14] Ken Cook: [01:35:14] I did.

[01:35:15] Rob Barnhart: [01:35:15] So when you cited his previous position without clarifying that he did change his position. Do you feel that that was in dishonest in any way?

[01:35:24] Ken Cook: [01:35:24] No.

[01:35:25] Okay. My point was not to demonstrate Luther's character Lutheran faith. My point was rather showed that the outcome of a plain text reading hermeneutic.

[01:35:37] Rob Barnhart: [01:35:37] I would say that's more the outcome of dealing with Prosecco persecution from the Roman Catholics. But okay.

[01:35:52] Really? I have nothing to really ask you other than. Two.  Ask you you know.

[01:36:06] I really don't have any other questions. I think we've basically arrived at the thing that I needed to say. There's really nothing else that you really can ask you. Okay.

[01:36:16] Andrew Rappaport: [01:36:16] You want to go you want to go

[01:36:20] too

[01:36:20] Rob Barnhart: [01:36:20] close then? What would that be me closing fersen?

[01:36:25] Ken Cook: [01:36:25] It would be. So

[01:36:28] Andrew Rappaport: [01:36:28] five minutes if you want more questions.

[01:36:33] Rob Barnhart: [01:36:33] What I'll do is I'll just use that five minutes to kind of gather my thoughts for the clothes then.

[01:36:47] Let

[01:36:48] me know

[01:36:49] when you're ready and we'll do red. I'm gonna go ahead and move on to the clothes. Okay, I restarted the timer. I'll put can in timeout. I mean a backstage.

[01:37:04] Andrew Rappaport: [01:37:04] I wanted to some point during this debate.

[01:37:08] Rob Barnhart: [01:37:08] All right, go go ahead with your clothes. All right, so. Again, the the thesis of the debate is baptism does not save men.

[01:37:20] I said in the beginning that is extremely hard to prove a negative and I think my phone is clearly demonstrated. It's extremely hard for when your formative against a negative is. Against what scripture says he tried his best and I would just point out that I'm the one who walked through scripture.

[01:37:42] I'm the one to provided extra Jesus. I'm the one who called you to my scripture. What did my opponent is? Spent a lot of time trying to think of philosophy and reasonable things to try to attack the clear word of scripture. What did my opponent do when he did finally actually touch the word of God.

[01:38:06] He delivered some of the forests attempted extra Jesus. I've heard regarding bats as a matter fact, I would encourage you Kendall to more borrow from your your Mentor message. His ex Jesus is at least a little bit more defensible than yours. So I would just simply say and remind everybody can say scripture clearly says that baptism saves

[01:38:34] if you continue in that salvation or not irregardless, if you are saved you are safe is God's work pronounces by faith. You are saved you are safe. So one Lord, yeah. So for Christ also suffered once for sins the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God how by being put to Death In the Flesh be made alive in the spirit speaking of his resurrection, which he proclaimed his spirits of the.

[01:39:07] His resurrection the gospel he went and told them because they formally did not obey when when God's patience way to the days of Noah linking us back to a time of water. Noah was told build an ark water is coming.  Salvation is here build an ark prices are Arc. When we are in Christ and water washes over us we are safe.

[01:39:36] That's why Peter goes on to say.  in which a few persons were brought safely through the water likewise. We are brought safely through the Water by our Christ's baptism which corresponds to this incident at. I'm calling to your mind now saves you to rectly. Demonstrating my opponent contradicts the clear word scripture and does so due to his tradition.

[01:40:06] He must find a way to make this scripture not say what he said. You heard him repeatedly saying Baptist. It doesn't save you yet. Scripture says it does.  And it says not as a removable dirt, so it's not just the mere water. Not a bath there for his straw man of flying over people's heads and dumping water and claiming that I'm doing a valid baptism is I hope you would see not my position and I would just say simply end with this candle Paul has strong words for you.

[01:40:43] Do you not know? No wise to all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus. We in Christ. Jesus were baptized into his death. He died in the water. This is something that is actually happening in baptism. We were buried with him in by baptism into his death.  in order that we would be raised by the glory of the father that we met to walk in the newness of.

[01:41:14] This would be regeneration. This would be the new nature the new man, whatever you want to call it.  For we have been United in it.  I'll certainly be named in the resurrection. Like is there you see we will be connecting with his resurrection.  We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing so that we can no longer be a slave to sin.

[01:41:44] Has died has been set free from sin. We die in baptism. We are directly connected with this crucifixion in baptism and we are there by freed from sin.  You understand that in light of other texts were clearly baptism for the Forgiveness of sins. This can be a means which you receive salvation this clear salvation language to washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit when he poured out on us richly through Christ Jesus.

[01:42:23] Over and over and over again scriptures very clear. The baptism is not something secondary to. Where is just pointing back to what's already taken place? And that's all it is. In fact baptism only speaks of baptism. Does it say water doesn't stay secure. It doesn't get into this thing and just simply says this is what baptism is.

[01:42:51] This is who does the work it is God. This is what it confers forgiveness of sins that freedom from sin. You are hair according to the to Adam. I am sorry Abraham by faith and you are given the hope of eternal life.

[01:43:16] My opponent has it done his exegetical. Fireman to overturn any of these passages. All he is used as sophistry of the highest order to try to give.

[01:43:35] Shorter scripture, he wants to fight against the clear reading plain reading of the scripture in favor of only a spiritual reading of these texts as the warrant to do that. We see that. Unlike some of Catholics I say that it's possible to be saved with the word. Do we see clear instances of instances where people had Faith prior to baptist.

[01:44:00] We also see people who are baptized and receive Faith these two things are seen in scripture, but my opponent must ignore. The Institute does not finish Theology and only highlight the versus it's speak to his tradition where I could rightly say God said both and rightly affirm both because unlike him I have submitted my reason underneath his word.

[01:44:28] My opponent has not he feels that he knows what the logical inferences of all these scriptures go you goes far beyond what scripture says in order? See things God has not nor does it contradict the plain spoken word of my Lord. This is rebellion of the highest order and you ought not to it.  I do not say that.

[01:44:51] My brother here is Faithfully poser price but is inconsistent in his confession of Faith towards towards my Lord. He rightly affirms. Some of God's word says but wrongly rejects others we. We we glorify and praise God in his sovereignty that he has bestowed Mercy enough for him to be a modest. We rightly confirmed that he of firms to Trinity rightly.

[01:45:18] So because what God's word teaches just on this particular matter, he is inconsistent. He rightly unfortunately rejects God's word. He would say the same about me thus by we are two different churches one Lutheran One Baptist.

[01:45:39] And I would just hope that people would rightly go to the word themselves to have seen this and make this debate nothing more than a reason to go and read God's word about baptism and I just simply ask you to ask yourself who's doing what because God is always one active and that's it. It is nothing you do.

[01:46:11] and I would just hope and pray that people would do that and accept the plain teaching of scripture and not fight against it with what they've previously been taught traditions of men and to allow God's word to its work as a means of Grace to give you faith in the faith was given to the Saints, which is What I Call Music, Thank you for your time.

[01:46:40] Thank you for a strategy for attorneys Ministries for having this debate. Thank you for apologetics life for hosting it thank you to my opponent Kendall Cook for agreeing to debate it. It has been sobering and interesting to do my first formal debate and it was I hope that. We'll use this to not only teach others but also teach me how to better apply My Confession of faith in reality.

[01:47:17] All

[01:47:17] Andrew Rappaport: [01:47:17] right, thank you Rob. I'm gonna reset the clock. You have your closing 10 minutes. Can you can go

[01:47:26] Ken Cook: [01:47:26] well, thank you. First of all, rob for coming out tonight. I think that this has been radically enlightening for all who have attended and all who will listen. Q's what we heard tonight faith can be given in baptism falling away is a possibility.

[01:47:46] And and there is no certainty for the one who was baptized.  That they will receive glorification. And so when we look at the definition of salvation provided in the larger catechism of the Lutheran Church. We see that there is a definite and necessary connection to living with Christ forever.  What we heard tonight from my opponent is that those who are baptized will not necessarily live with Christ forever and as such I do not believe.

[01:48:31] That he has supported his View and I believe it has been. Lee demonstrated to all that baptism does not save men.  In the same way, we can look at the text in First Peter and other places like we look at the text in James chapter 2. We recognize that while a clear reading of the text says we see that man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[01:49:01] And yet we confess we are saved by faith alone. Both Rob and I.  we can also look at the text and recognize that while the text says baptism saves it is not talking about functional salvation. It's talking about something else that's given an analogy. It's using a pastoral example.  to provide encouragement.

[01:49:25] Here's what we see in the actual text of scripture that were cited by Rob in Colossians 2:14. We see that the certificate of debt is. Insult we see in Ephesians 5 that the church is Holy and blameless and in Romans 6. We see that we will certainly be United with Christ in red in a resurrection like his yet Rob denied all of these things.

[01:49:50] He showed us clearly that the Lutheran position is the Roman Catholic position that baptism makes you savable if you continue in faith. That continuing in faith is up to you.  Therefore you save yourself by Faith by not a pasta sizing by doing enough to keep your faith.  And so while on one hand, we have a clear statement from my brother.

[01:50:21] We are saved by grace alone through faith alone. We see in this case that he openly confesses. That is what you do.  That shipwrecks your faith it is what you do that makes falling away a possibility moreover. He said in our second cross-examination. He doesn't even know if faith is given in baptism.

[01:50:49] He said it can be given in baptism. We trust that it's given in baptism, but we do not know if it's given in baptism in. Saying these things he has conceded the debate.  What I know and what the scriptures clearly teach is that faith comes by hearing that doesn't mean everyone who hears will receive Faith, but it does mean that only those who hear will receive faith.

[01:51:17] I asked my brother clearly. Where is this? Where did the scripture says that the gospel is found in baptism? Where does the scripture say that baptism provides Faith? He provided no answer to either of those questions. And in fact said the scriptures don't say.  In conclusion, I would ask you to look at the book of Acts.

[01:51:46] I would ask you to consider that in every single instance what we see is preaching and or teaching and. Anna.  And then repentance and faith. We never see in the book of Acts. We never want to see.  baptism and then faith.  I understand the traditionalist perspective. I understand that Lutheranism came out of Roman Catholicism, but I don't believe in the issue of baptism.

[01:52:24] It came out far enough.

[01:52:29] I believe that we can clearly see that we receive salvation when we repent.  and believe.  and then we are baptized and that Faith Comes via hearing and hearing from the preached word of Christ.  We also clearly solved a Lutheran semantic game. Ed well somehow preaching occurs in baptism despite the fact that the scriptures don't say this.

[01:53:05] I thought I'd ask you to consider.  Why it is that the Lutheran Church holds to this perspective.

[01:53:15] I would submit the words of many Lutheran laymen and theologians that have said look if baptism does not save her. We deal with those who died in childhood.  And if we can then say baptism does save it gives us hope for them.  This is a useful tool to quiet the heart pastorally but it is not what the scriptures teach.

[01:53:44] Thank you so much for attending tonight. I too would like to thank Andrew Rapaport and striving for eternity Ministries. I would like to thank Rob for attending

[01:53:58] and I hope that you The Listener would go back and look through the text of scripture see that in every single case. Faith comes by hearing and that we would put no trust in baptism. But rather that we would put our trust in Christ alone, and his gospel was preached to us. Thank you so much.

[01:54:30] Andrew Rappaport: [01:54:30] All right, let's we don't need the time. There we go. All right. Well, thank you guys for coming in. I want to thank both of you and we appreciate the time you put in to preparing for this debate. I hope folks that it was educational for you helps you to understand this we do try to do these debates here so that you guys can learn more.

[01:54:55] I do want to thank both. Can and Rob for coming in I before we go, I do want to announce though. Let you guys know we again we're going to Israel in 2021 striving for eternity. It will be joined by Justin Peters. If you want to join us go to 2021Israeltrip.com, and we would love to have you with us.